Ever wonder how trust and engagement can make or break a safety climate? Danny sits down with the paper's co-author and SafeStart Executive Advisor Pete Batrowny to discuss trust and engagement. This is episode 3 of 6 in our series discussing Safety Climate Success Factors.
Host: Danny Smith
Guest: Pete Batrowny
https://safestart.com/file/idclip/
Ever wonder how trust and engagement can make or break a safety climate? Danny sits down with the paper's co-author and SafeStart Executive Advisor Pete Batrowny to discuss trust and engagement. This is episode 3 of 6 in our series discussing Safety Climate Success Factors.
Host: Danny Smith
Guest: Pete Batrowny
https://safestart.com/file/idclip/
Welcome back to Safe Talk with Safe Start. I'm Danny Smith and today we continue our series on Safe Start's six success factors. Now, if you haven't downloaded the white paper with this, be sure to check that out. We'll put a link to that in the show notes there. But it's a real treat for you today we have one of the co-authors of that white paper, our fellow senior consultant and one of the sharpest minds I know, Mr Peter Batrowny. Pete, welcome back to the podcast.
Pete Batrowny:Thanks, Danny, for the kind introduction and thanks again for having me back on the podcast. I really enjoy this and, if I can, I'd really like to say thank you to Dr Pandora Bryce. As you know, was one of the or my co-author on the paper, and you know that she's really the smart one.
Danny Smith:And with that said, yeah, you know, I think you, you, you, you and her to make a great team, and I think it's really a brilliant paper. I read through it just the other day when it was released, and it's really really just kind of a roadmap of how to succeed with Safe Start, but certainly in other areas as well, with other projects and, and you know, processes that are going on within organizations. But it really focuses in on what helps people to succeed with Safe Start, and there are six success factors in all, and today we're going to focus on trust and engagement, and this portion of the paper really has two main points. So let's kind of lay the groundwork or where we're going with this. The first one is on engaging coworkers with open communication, and the second, then, is listening in order to understand, then clarify and confirm. So let's let's talk about those a bit, Pete.
Pete Batrowny:All right. So if we start with engaging the coworkers and open communication and this is, you know, everybody that we encounter at work, Danny, and if we could, I'd like the audience to think for just a minute about someone lives. It might be a coworker or somebody in their personal lives that they really trust and respect, and I think this is a really, really powerful thing to do. You know who's that? Go to person. You know when, when stuff hits the fan, who do you want on your team?
Pete Batrowny:And if you really think about it, those people generally share three qualities that I've seen, and the first one is that they're going to shoot straight with you right, all the time, and especially when it's something that you might not want to hear or something difficult to say, they're still going to be a straight shooter. So that's the first thing. And next thing is that the person's humble. You know they've got humility as a, as an ingrained trait, willing to admit their mistakes, admit their shortcomings. That's the second thing. And then the third thing is that these types of people that that are usually trustworthy, that we trust, have other people's interests at heart. They're invested in the other person's success and not so much in their own success. So I think those three things you know. Not asking you to be everybody's friend, but if you try to practice those three things you certainly gain the respect and trust of the people that interact with.
Danny Smith:Just making sure everybody caught those three items there that you mentioned Shooting straight, always shooting straight. I like that. Being humble and just making sure that you have the other person's best interest at heart. I think those are really, really key. You know, as I think about the mentors that I've had through the years, personally and professionally I'm personally I'm thinking of my grandfather at the moment, because I had a lot of interaction with him growing up All of them had those things in common and, to be blunt, that's that's why I listen to them. That's why people listen to anybody that's in one of these roles. The trust and engagement plays a huge, huge roles for that, Even if the coaching has to be direct or, you know, a little rough at times, that's that's why we listen to them right, Because we do respect them, we do trust them.
Pete Batrowny:Yeah, those are great points, Danny, and you know we don't really have to be a mentor to everybody, but but if you want to build trust, you know, maintain trust with somebody. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better foundation than those three characteristics that we just talked about.
Danny Smith:Sure, and it really kind of comes back to communication as well. Does that sound fair?
Pete Batrowny:Yeah, absolutely. You know, Danny, that we often discuss how the six safety climate success factors are so intertwined. You know they're really really closely interrelated. But I believe that the trust and engagement is really at the heart of it. You know it'd be challenging to develop and improve the other five factors without that trust and engagement.
Pete Batrowny:You know, if we have a climate of blame, we either blame individuals or sometimes, you know, shifts blame each other, departments blame each other. You know that's going to be hard to develop trust in an atmosphere like that and without that trust, without that engagement, there's not going to be effective or sincere communication amongst the teams. And you know, even when there is open communication, workers are going to be willing to identify what's really going on rather than trying to, you know, kind of hide or ignore safety issues, near misses, things like that. As we know, the hardest problem to solve is that one that we don't know about Absolutely. So when leaders are role models, you know, for candid conversation and owning up to their own mistakes, advocates for solving the problems, finding the underlying conditions rather than relying on quick fixes or pointing a finger, you know you're not only going to get trust but you're going to get more accurate information, more open dialogue and workers are going to be willing to share more often.
Pete Batrowny:You know, if we think of the flip side of that coin, if you look, working in an environment where there's low trust, you know that can lead to people disregarding safety rules, for example, taking shortcuts. That can lead to errors and, you know, sometimes result in injuries. As we know, productivity upsets those types of things and when we look around see that nobody else is, you know, doing it the way the rules say, you know that kind of becomes the norm. Right, we might feel social pressure to take those unnecessary risks. You know, and the research affirms this, excessive peer pressure, you know, can influence the way we do our work. A mistrust between colleagues can create that environment where you know there's just, you know, a strain on solving issues and strain on communications.
Danny Smith:Absolutely, and it sounds like a key component for building trust. It really just comes back to communication just having a daily dialogue, just talking with people.
Pete Batrowny:You know that's exactly right and you know the research that we did continues to support that notion. Danny, the daily interaction between people. You know leaders getting out and talking to people considered one of the building blocks of having a healthy safety climate we're used to doing them face to face. We've been doing them for a long time. But you know we've got to think that in. You know, in the current world, texting sometimes is the preferred form of communication. We've got all these online platforms that we're using. You know, person to face-to-face communications or face-to-face conversations aren't an option. We've got to rely on the technology to help us out, but we can still use those platforms to build trust if we're open and humble and invested in other folks, like we talked about before.
Danny Smith:Right, you know it's interesting. You say that, Pete. Obviously, during the pandemic we were doing a lot of virtual sessions and it's funny we're recording this on the Zoom platform as we're going through and doing our podcast is just a good format for us to do this. We do a lot of stuff now virtually. We have a lot of virtual meetings, and I find that one of the things that I noticed during the pandemic was that I was not immediately after the pandemic as well as we started getting back out and being with people again is I noticed, I started not making eye contact with people as much.
Danny Smith:I think a part of that was you know, the psychologists say that we don't like seeing ourselves on screen and that certainly is a part of the Zoom teams.
Danny Smith:Whatever platform you're using the virtual platforms that's a part of that. We don't like staring at that screen that's got our picture on there. So I quit looking directly at the screen all the time while I was, you know, on screen myself and I found that when I got back out with people, that was affecting me because I was not making eye contact with people like I used to, and that's I don't know about you, but when I have somebody that is not making eye contact with me, particularly in person, that subconsciously even kind of signals distrust, right, and so making eye contact is a huge thing, and I found that the virtual platforms going back again, you can't read the you know the tone or message or anything into a text message, that type of thing as well. But certainly all of those things play a role when you're thinking about building trust. You got to be able to be comfortable with somebody and feel that they're trustworthy, right.
Pete Batrowny:Yeah, a few important things that you said there, Danny. It's absolutely important to understand how those kind of nonverbal things, nonverbal parts of communication, like make an eye contact or nod in your head when somebody's talking, how important it is and even how you know more important it is when we're using the electronic, you know, media to communicate. And another point that I was thinking about, if you were mentioning that, is how easy it is for our habits to change when technology changes. And it's really important, especially when we're talking about communicating with people, to you know, understand what those important habits are and make an effort to maintain them and not let the what the technology changes.
Danny Smith:Yeah, it's really true. You know, we, we, we often joke about it being an issue with younger generations, but it's, you and I are about the same age. It's not just the younger folks, it's folks our age as well who are, you know, certainly in the end of the Gen X, the earlier part of the Gen X, or maybe even in the end of the baby boomers, even, you know, in that time period I guess I'm giving our age away by saying that but yeah, yeah it. Folks in their fifties, you know, even early sixties, we, we see them doing the same thing.
Danny Smith:Now it's not just a young people problem, if you will, and boy, I think the millennials get blamed for everything. But you know, it's. It's not just them, it's everybody. And we've all drifted towards that. And I think you know again not blaming everything on COVID, but I certainly think that the plat pandemic didn't do us any favors when it comes to interpersonal communications, for sure. Now in this paper you tell about a leader who used communications to save a lot of jobs at his plant. If you don't mind, share a bit of that with with everyone here, if you don't mind.
Pete Batrowny:Sure Danny, and you know I think about this. I've seen the same type of scenario play out over and over again, even, you know, going back to the time Then I was in the military, where a leader will come in with the same people, same resources, they just get extraordinary results. And you know, recently I had the opportunity to talk with a plant manager and he was telling me that you know, he was tasked to go to a plant, kind of evaluate the plant. They're underperforming and you know his boss wanted him to make a decision of you know, should we keep the plant open or should we close it down?
Pete Batrowny:And you know it had a remarkable turnaround and the productivity, the you know happiness of the people there. And it really happened kind of you know it's a transformation that happened over a really short period of time. And when I asked the plant manager you know what was your key to success, he said you know, first thing I did when I came here, it was took the time to learn everybody's name, find out what they're, you know what their pinch points were, what was bothering them, and develop a personal relationship with all of those folks and by doing that kind of turned around people's attitudes.
Pete Batrowny:So with the same equipment, you know, same raw materials, just had extraordinary output and it really came down to his relationship With those people that that kind of turned the tide there. So I thought that was, you know, really closely related to what we're talking about today with the communication taking the time to listen, you know, be invested in and other people and, and you know, being earnest about that and how it can really work to help you get, you know, what we call discretionary energy from folks, right, people come to work. You don't want them just working hard enough not to get fired, you want them working hard enough to really succeed, right?
Danny Smith:Sure, yeah, and I think it's amazing when you, when you start having those conversations with people when we're not talking about anything major here, it's just, you know, being personable and being open with them it's just remarkable what you can unearth in those conversations. If they begin to trust you and they begin to engage with you, you can find out all sorts of things. You know. In that example you you talked about, it sounded like you know he began to unearth some frustrations that were going on there, and a lot of that comes back to to listening, and listening accurately, I found, is, as our friend Jack Jackson often says, that people tend to listen to respond rather than listening to comprehend. Or to put it another way, most of us have probably heard this, probably from a parent or grandparent. God gave you two ears and one mouth to use them accordingly, right?
Pete Batrowny:Exactly and that that my mother used to give me that advice all the time. Right Listening has got to be important and that we're designed to listen more than we are to talk and you know, just waiting around for your. If you're the type of person that's just waiting around for your, your turn to talk, people are gonna pick up on that. My people pick up on those, those subtle non-verbal cues, right, and I think there's kind of wisdom in those things that you said.
Pete Batrowny:And one of the things I think about, Danny, is that our society, our social conditioning, it's really to win arguments. We're kind of competitive by nature and so many of us have really forgotten how to be active listeners. I would say listening is an activity, it's not a passive event and there's a bunch of benefits that you can gain and some of these you've heard before. But if you're specifically focused on the message being communicated, avoid distractions and the preoccupations, don't be on your phone, don't be looking at your computer and even though, like he said, if you're not making eye contact, people might make the assumption that that's what you're doing, you gain a full, accurate, understanding. Speaker's point of view, get what their idea is. Like you mentioned before, you're going to learn things if you're a good, good, active listener and critically assess what's being said. Ask in those follow-up questions getting clarity about what you're talking about.
Danny Smith:And like we talked about before. Can I jump in for a second? That's an interesting point, because sometimes and I think maybe it's one of those things where we don't want to appear dumb or we don't want to appear not understanding or what have you sometimes I think a lot of folks don't ask for clarification and one of the great things to do is just OK, I'm not really following you here. Let me tell you what I understood you saying and see if this makes sense, or make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Just little things like that, but some of it. So many of us just don't really want to take the time to do that. Sometimes it's embarrassment, sometimes it's we don't want to feel inferior, whatever it is. I think there's a lot of psychological things going on there, but that is so powerful just to stop and say OK, what I heard you say is this Is that right? Am I following you right on this, you know, and that helps to keep that communication going as well.
Pete Batrowny:Absolutely Great point, Danny. You know, and when you give somebody instructions or you're telling somebody something, on the other end, you know, lots of times it sounds good, you know, coming out of our mouth, but is that the you know, the actual message that got communicated? Sure, asking those follow up questions, you know, and when I was in the military, one of the key things that we used to do, if there was, you know, mission critical or life critical instructions, we make sure you repeat them back and forth so we're exactly on the same page, right, that important and it's an important skill to develop.
Danny Smith:So I remember, early in my career, before I got involved with manufacturing and ultimately safety, I worked in restaurant management for a while and I remember it was in one particular training class with that I was a trainee and they were teaching us how to interact with the public and you know how to diagnose if there were problems, just basic customer relations, one-on-one kind of thing. And you know, it was kind of a set up. Quite obviously, one of the trainers was doing a bit of a role play type of thing where he was the customer sitting at the table and the managers, if you will, were coming over to talk to them and see how things were going. And he came over and you know, hey, how are things today? I was great. And he says, how was your food today?
Danny Smith:And the gentleman responded not too hot, and instantly everybody started trying to solve the problem. Oh, I'm sorry, what was wrong with it? It did not taste good, but blah, blah, blah, blah. You know you can imagine. And that person couldn't diagnose the things that somebody else tried. We went through three or four people as each one of us tried to get up and see what was wrong with this gentleman's order and he wouldn't tell them and finally he stopped. Be sure to you.
Pete Batrowny:Yeah, he stopped.
Danny Smith:Everybody says oh no, no, no, no. Y'all don't understand. He says. I simply said you asked me how my food was today and I said not too hot. Came in here last week and tried to eat it too quick.
Danny Smith:It was right out of the oven and it burnt the crap out of my mouth, you know so today it wasn't too hot, I know good temperature and but we assume a lot of things there and we've all seen were broken down phenetically. We won't go into that today but certainly there's. It's just, you know. Again, listening to understand and just making sure we understand what people are saying and what you know, restating that you know and asking those follow up questions. Is it really really big right?
Pete Batrowny:That's a great story and so you know, you know a few other things on listening, you know we want to make sure that.
Pete Batrowny:You know we talked about the.
Pete Batrowny:You know our nonverbal cues and and things like that and a couple of other things that you know we might be not thinking about, and I think it's important to mention and that's really showing, you know, sincere recognition to people. You know, when we talk about communication, it's not just how we communicate, but it's what we communicate, and a lot of times, as you know, Danny, we get in the mode where, you know we want to get things done. We might tend to, you know, interact with people or engage people when you know we need to correct an error, for example, right, or when we need them to do something for us, and we've got to be deliberate about being out there and showing, you know, not just saying good job, pat on the back, but, you know, tell them what it meant to you. Why was it important to you, what was the benefit to us, what was the benefit to the organization? Given that, specifics and sincere feedback is something that I wanted to make sure that we captured here when we talked about trust and engagement.
Danny Smith:Yeah, you don't want to just be talking to people when it's only the quote unquote bad things right, when you're only given that. I don't want to say discipline, but certainly that coaching on things that have gone wrong or gone bad right.
Danny Smith:If that's the only time you're talking to your folks? Every time they see you come walking up, what are they automatically going to assume? Insert phrase here what went wrong now? Right, so you got to make sure that you're talking to folks all the time, right, exactly. So a lot of stuff here related to listening skills and I think you covered some great, great benefits here from that. In summary, I think it just having those conversations really just begins to build that trust and gets people engaged, and that's what we're trying to do here, right.
Pete Batrowny:Exactly getting to open communication, practicing some of the skills that you know asking open-ended questions, for example, showing appreciation. If you are deliberate about those things, you're going to get that open communication going. It's going to lead to people trusting you, going to build engagement, going to get better information and, you know, as a result, come up with better solutions and create a you know good atmosphere to work in, good climate to work in.
Danny Smith:Yeah, absolutely, and in the words of our good friend and fellow consultant, Keith Asborne indeed, yes, shout out to Keith there. So, Pete, this has been a really, really productive podcast. Thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom with everybody with this, and thanks for your contributions on this white paper. I think it's a phenomenal resource for everybody and again, just thanks for being here today. Yeah, you're.
Pete Batrowny:That's always far too kind, Danny, but thank you. It's always a pleasure to you know be on these podcasts with you and I hope you invite me real soon to be on another one.
Danny Smith:Thanks so much again, and thanks for everyone else for your time today. On behalf of Pete and the entire Safe Talk team, I really appreciate you listening. Be sure to share this with others and don't forget to download the complete white paper. We do have a link to that on our show notes. So that's our time for today. Thanks so much for listening. Again, I'm Danny Smith for Safe Talk with Safe Start, so go out and just have a great day.