S13Ep12: Beyond Safety: Embracing Human Factors for Success

 Discover how intelligence, creativity, and adaptability can redefine your organization’s approach to safety and performance. Learn why resilience is crucial for bouncing back from setbacks and preventing them in the first place. 

These principles are universally relevant, whether you're leading a team or simply looking to enhance your personal growth. 

Host: Tim Page-Bottorff

Guest: Pete Batrowny

Chapters

• 0:09 Exploring Positive Aspects of Human Factors
• 6:55 Expanding Human Factors Beyond Safety

Transcript

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

00:09

Hey, welcome back to SafeTalk with Safestart. I'm Tim Page-Bottorff. We tend to think of human factors as human error and sometimes, yes, we know that that's not the right thing to do. But just for a second, what if we flip that coin over? Today's guest has given that question a lot of thought For longtime listeners. You'll recognize the name Peter Batrowny. He's been a guest on this podcast before, as well as a frequent member of Larry Wilson's experts’ panels, so you know he's got to be smart Pete. Hey, welcome back to the podcast. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

00:43

Thanks a lot, Tim, and thanks for having me back. It's always a pleasure to sit down with you and your audience. I'm really looking forward to our chat today. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

00:50

Yeah, me too. You know, I touched on it in the opening. But when someone thinks of human factors like rushing, frustration, fatigue and maybe even boredom and distraction, obviously those are the ones that quickly come to mind for our listeners. But there's another side of that coin. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

01:07

Ain't that right? Yeah, you're exactly right, Tim, and you know, when we think about SafeStart, you know we talk about the individual as well as the organizational learning loop and SafeStart itself. Or SafeStart Now. We help people develop skills and as you master them you naturally notice fewer mistakes Might be accidents or, more likely, performance errors that are reduced if we can learn these skills and master these skills, which is really a positive aspect of human factors that sometimes we don't give enough thought to or leverage enough in our organizations. You know we all want to reduce the number, and the severity of outcomes related to human error but, as you pointed out, you know, WE, the big picture, WE, you know, all of us are a lot more than just errors. You know there's a lot to think about when it comes to human factors and the positive aspects, some of those positive attributes that I've noticed in us as people that could be very advantageous to us as leaders. 

02:14

To kind of capitalize on. Those are things like our intelligence we can be very creative. People are also adaptive, we learn from mistakes, we can bounce back from error, we're very sensitive, we can kind of get in tune with our surroundings and when we see something that isn't quite right. We can often use that sensitivity to avert some disasters. We can be empathetic towards each other. One of the things, Tim, that you and I have seen a lot in high performing organizations is that people look out for each other, and with that empathy, you know, you can take that looking out for each other to a different level. All right, we're also very intuitive. People can be very passionate, especially about the things that they really care about, things near and dear to their hearts, and people can also be resilient. I know it's related to being adaptable, but being resilient, being able to, you know, kind of learn from our mistakes and move forward better, stronger is a really, really good, positive aspect of human beings that, again, we can take advantage of as leaders. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

03:21

I like that. I really do like that a lot. That's a great list and it does come back to what we do in our business because it's a lot of easy. It's really easy for people to come back to us and say, hey, you guys only focus on human error, but your list is all on the positive end and ironically, I know you did this intentionally. Um, you left with resiliency. So, I know you well enough to know that you would put resilience with intention on the end. So why did you choose to end with resilience? 

Pete Batrowny Guest

03:51

Well, the reason I put that at the end of the list is that I hope you'd ask me to expand on it a little bit, Tim, and as you know, you and I have worked together on a lot of projects with a lot of businesses in different industries. But one of the topics that comes up a lot of projects with a lot of businesses in different industries, but one of the topics that comes up a lot is that resiliency. You know businesses strive to be resilient. We know that things that we don't want to happen are going to happen and the way we respond to those undesired things is really at the heart of resiliency. If you think about the high-reliability organizations, that's one of the characteristics of a, of HRO, something that those businesses strive for and actually, you know, try to develop that mindset in their people and to me that you know being resilient people is at the heart of it. You know people have a remarkable ability to learn, to bounce back from mistakes. You know, recently, when people share a story with me during SafeStart or SafeLead that's related to a near miss or an injury, I've been asking them, you know, before that incident happened or before you know you made that error or almost had that injury? Did you hear a little voice in your head telling you maybe don't do that? No, did you hear that the vast majority of people say, yeah, I heard the voice, but I chose to ignore it? Right, and self-triggering on those gut feelings can be a good way to build resiliency in individuals. That's going to translate to the organization. 

05:28

And there's another SafeStart concept that's related to resilience, related to the high-reliability organizations, and you know it's stated as a preoccupation with failure. You know, kind of looking for things that could go wrong and head them off before they cause a catastrophic outcome that we don't want. And you know, I like to rephrase that a little bit and just say it's a healthy preoccupation with failure, looking for things that may be out of the ordinary, things that could be, you know, out of the norm with a process. And you know, of course, you know, Tim, in SafeStart one of the things we do when we're telling SafeStart stories is ask how could it have been worse. You know that's an important element of a good SafeStart story. Could it have been worse? You know that's an important element of a good safe start story. It's related to the resiliency concept that we're talking about, also related to those characteristics of high-reliability organizations. So that's kind of why I left it there. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

06:25

Yeah, I agree with you. It's great input in regard to the storytelling because once you say what it could have done in terms of how it could have been worse, makes you really analyze that situation on how it could have been worse. But then also you're pretty lucky to be here, or maybe you did self-trigger, so the resilience captures I think fascinating and I appreciate you bringing it up as a matter of fact. I knew intentionally that you would put that on a list and at last. So, I appreciate that, as you, we. We talk a lot about here at SafeStart. We talk a lot about the errors and, of course, the states that cause them. However, in our version of behavior-based safety, which we refer to as SafeTrack, we talk a lot about positive reinforcement for safe behaviors. But, if I heard you correctly, we should expand our concepts of human factors just beyond safety and errors. Is that right? 

Pete Batrowny  Guest

07:17

Yeah, exactly, Tim. You know it's obvious that we're going to learn from our mistakes. You know that immediate negative feedback, you know that sort of thing it's healthy, but the vast majority of the time, you know the people that we work with, the people that we're surrounded with, are really doing great things. You know a lot more than great things and I believe it's good for leaders to be on the lookout for those things, recognize those good things that people are doing, those positive aspects that we talked about. When someone does something that shows creativity or adaptability or resilience, you know we should not only be on the lookout for it, but we should let people know, give them that specific feedback that we noticed that they're, you know, doing the right thing. And if we do that, those good aspects of the human factors are likely to get repeated and spread through our organization and teams. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

08:13

Now, I know what you said there in that list is good, and, from a resilience perspective, we've made mistakes, and, from time to time, people they don't make mistakes, and they don't necessarily get caught. For the times they're doing great things because it's expected, but when a leader actually catches them you're talking specifically just about that a good catch, and so the difference in our behavior-based safety systems that we have out there whether you're using SafeTrack or whatever you're solely actually looking at safe behaviors and obviously putting that down on percent safe, and so what you're suggesting, Pete, though, is that we look at our employees not necessarily just in safety, but as a whole and in an entire group like quality and performance. Is that right? 

Pete Batrowny Guest

08:58

Yeah, that's right, Tim, you know, I think that we as safety leaders, and leaders in general, have a tremendous opportunity to impact the overall culture of a business right? By doing so, we can impact all the performance KPIs. It's not just safety. We can impact the quality, we can reduce the number of defects, those types of things, the things that are going to make our business more profitable and a better place to work. It's not just safety. Now, how many times, Tim, have we done safely together? Have we heard our folks that we're coaching say wow, this isn't just about safety leadership. Right, this stuff's going to work in all aspects of my job and it can work at home. Right, because a church function, or even being a parent Right. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

10:01

And these skills that we develop as leaders can help us in a lot of different aspects, not just for safety. I can't agree with you more. That's. That's fantastic Talking about where those things can fit outside of safety.

10:09

I just want to let our listeners just remind you that Danny and I did a podcast on the human Factors Framework. That was back in March of 2021. If you need a title, it's called A Guide to Improving Organizational Performance, and in that podcast, we actually discussed, among other things, the individual and the organizational learning loops. So, to bring this full circle back to what he's talking about specifically, Peter, I just thank you for pointing those things out. I just want to say that you can learn both organizationally and both individually and that person to step up and say that they took this stuff home and worked on it as a parent. That's leadership, and it doesn't just have to be at work, it can go everywhere. So, it fits right into what we're talking about today. So, Pete, what do you think In terms of resilience? Is there anything from a characteristic perspective that we should look for? 

Pete Batrowny  Guest

10:58

Sure. So you know you mentioned resilience, human factors framework, Tim, and I think that's as we both know, it's a great lens to kind of look at the things that we're doing at work, looking at the organizational learning loop, looking at the individual learning loop, and see how we can use those positive aspects of human factors, including resilience, to kind of help us out, help us get the outcomes that we desire. So, you know, from an individual learning loop standpoint, that we desire. So you know, from an individual learning loop standpoint, you know all of those positive characteristics can lead to resilience, can lead to individuals and ultimately, the organization having the ability to, you know, kind of fail safely that we hear a lot right, the high-reliability organizations have a focus on those front lines, on that individual learning loop, and we as leaders need to learn how to create an environment, or a climate, if you will, in which people can use those positive elements of human factors like intelligence, user creativity, user adaptability, to make good decisions and make decisions that are going to lead to the positive outcomes that we're looking for. And, from an organizational standpoint, when we think about how we design systems, whether they're technical systems or people systems, how can we take advantage of those positive human factors. How can we keep those in mind as we're designing these systems? 

12:24

One example that comes to mind is if we have a metric, for example, for closing corrective actions. Often the proactive metric is the date by which it's closed, and what that does is drive us to close the corrective action within a given period of time. Close the corrective action within a given period of time. But a metric like that might inadvertently result in plans, action plans, corrective actions that aren't optimal. Right, we got it done on time, but what we often find is that we're going after that same problem again, because we closed it on time, but we really didn't close it with a high-quality solution. So instead of having the date, or maybe in addition to having that date for closure, we could do something like how often are these types of incidents or these types of upsets repeated in our organization, or are we fixing them the first time, right? So, if we're measuring that it's really going to lead to results corrective actions that are sustainable, that are going to correct the problem the first time, we don't have to come back and kind of revisit it in the future. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

13:40

Yeah, I think, adding those dates you and I have seen this out in the field where you know you add a date and then all of a sudden it becomes an additional metric on follow up and then sometimes the employee won't feel like they're getting their you know, whatever that is that they mentioned for corrective action, getting it done, and then the date yeah, you're right, it, just it. It creates unintended consequences. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

14:01

. So, thank you for that, from the organizational learning loop. We can think about those things and bake them in ahead of time so that we can drive those behaviors that we want and also get them communicated throughout the organization. That's right. 

That's right, well, Pete, that we've been talking a lot about the value of taking the concepts related. Make a deliberate effort to be on the lookout for those positive actions, for those good things that people are doing, and provide specific, consistent feedback when they observe those positive actions and behaviors, if they do that, those things are likely to get repeated. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

15:04

Perfect. Thank you so much for that, Pete. It was great catching up with you and if the listeners want to reach out to Pete directly, you can actually do so at pete@safestart.com that’s. Pete as in Papa Echo Tango Echo dot com. So, Pete thank you for joining us today. Be sure to check out Pete’s fine work on this channel and on Larry Wilson’s Live. And to you, our listeners thank you for your time today. And remember to. share this episode and be sure to tell others about us, this podcast. I’m Tim Page-Bottorff, on behalf of  SafeTalk with SafeStart, I’ll see you down the road.