S14Ep15: Building A Just Culture

What if “human error” is the starting point—not the end—of a safer, smarter workplace? David Bianco sat down with us and discussed what a fair and just culture truly looks like under pressure, why trust always surpasses fear, and how small signals from leaders can influence how work is approached.

Host: Danny Smith

Guest: David Bianco

https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1032442/episodes/9825473-s6ep7-psychological-safety

Chapters

• 0:00 Defining A Just Culture
• 2:15 Trust, Safe Spaces, And Psychological Safety
• 6:30 Human Factors And Complacency Risks
• 12:20 Transparency In Action: Small Fixes, Big Signals
• 17:45 Communication Loops And Peer Coaching
• 21:55 Human Error As A System Symptom
• 27:30 Design, Serviceability, And Work Realities
• 33:10 Benefits: Reporting, Learning, And Engagement
• 39:50 Leadership Reactions And Honest Metrics
• 45:00 Dilution From Policy To Practice

Transcript

Danny Smith: 0:06

Welcome back to Safe Talk with Safe Start. I'm Danny Smith, and today's topic is Just Culture. So I guess we start out with what is it? How do you develop it? How do you maintain it? And well, why does it all matter? Joining me today is Mr. David Bianco. David's a frequent guest on not only the podcast, but also on Larry Wilson's expert panel as well. You may have heard him there. And David's been at it for a while now, well over 45 years. And uh this is David's second time being on the podcast here with us. So uh David, welcome back.

David Bianco: 0:38

Thank you for having me, Danny. I really appreciate it. This is a great topic.

Danny Smith: 0:43

So you're welcome to be back, sir. And really glad to have you. And thanks for being here again. Uh, and I guess maybe we start this off with uh, well, it may sound a little bit clinical, but let's start with the definition of just culture. And we pulled this off the internet. Uh, a fair and just culture is one that learns and improves by openly identifying and examining its own weaknesses. It is transparent in that those within it are willing to expose weaknesses as they are to expose, they're as open rather, as willing, rather. I'll get it right in a minute. They're as willing to expose weaknesses as they are to expose areas of excellence. That's the key point. We'll talk about that one in a minute. In a just culture, employees feel safe and protected when voicing concerns about safety, and they have the freedom to discuss their own actions, the actions of others in the environment. It's not viewed as the cause of an adverse event, but rather as a symptom of a deeper trouble within an imperfect system. All right. I made it through most of that without stumbling through it too much. We'll come back and pick that apart in a bit here. Uh that's that's kind of well, that's kind of the clinical definition. Let's let's put it this way. Um, I would personally say that just culture is a place where employees feel safe admitting that they made a mistake or just speaking up about safety concerns. How's that putting it in a nutshell?

David Bianco: 2:06

Yeah, that's good.

Danny Smith: 2:08

Yeah, I think it it just seems a little less wordy for sure, right? So to me, it kind of comes back to the idea of trust. Does that make sense to you as well?

David Bianco: 2:19

Sure, it does. And you know, the the the term you hear today in the culture a lot is safe space.

Danny Smith: 2:25

Sure.

David Bianco: 2:25

You know, and this is really an uh opportunity where you're in a safe space to be able to be open about what you've encountered, uh, what you think might be an issue, which because thinking ahead is a really important part of safety because it's all about prevention. So risk risk observations, things of that nature. So it's really about non-judgmental culture and the ability to be able to do things for the betterment of the organization, in spite of the times when it is maybe a little bit of a tough pill to swallow. That could be cost, that could be the time it takes, that could be the we've done it that way always here routine. So, you know, it doesn't matter. All those things uh evolve in that. So, really the ability to be open to change and open to that mirror, the reflection of what the organization really is is really critical.

Danny Smith: 3:20

Sure. You know, sometimes we we hear the idea of psychological safety too. And uh, you know, Tim did a podcast on that recently. I'll drop a link to that for everybody in the show notes if you haven't heard it. Uh, but like you said, it's just kind of the acceptance that, well, we're all human, we all make mistakes, which I think is just a perfect match really for a process like SafeStart.

David Bianco: 3:42

Yeah, no, it really is an enabling type thing. Um you know, safety in most places, when you really get down to it in a business, gets down to people really, there's a fear factor involved with making mistakes, there's a fear factor involved with not following the rules. The all of these things really are just normalized. And so when you talk safety, a lot of times it's a negative. It's you do this, you shall not do that, you do, you know, it's so it's got these, got all these fences around it, so to speak. And what I what I talk about when it comes to uh human factors, when it comes to Safe Start, is it really makes the two-dimensional thing three-dimensional. And and that to me is where the meat's at. That's where the the bone's at. You know, that that stick man you draw doesn't have much depth to him, but when you can give it a you know some some volume and you can give it some presence, you really start to dig beneath the surface of the organization, of the people, of the department, of the supervisor, of the norms, of anything that you've had within the company that in fact, you know, we all carry baggage, companies carry baggage, everybody has it. Um, it's like it's like uh complacency. You know, there's a good side to that, and there's a potentially negative side to that. And so you start to see in more senior employees, you know, they're really skilled and they're really great. But at the same time, they're really skilled at maybe workarounds, shortcuts, and they don't pick up maybe on changes that occur in a process because they're on autopilot, right? So uh yeah, so I mean, and these are the things that we have to honestly be able to confront and to understand and and really drop our egos a bit. I think that's a really critical issue because I find egos and complacency, there's a place in there where egos and complacency meld, and and and uh it gets to be uh a little dangerous. I once had a guy say to me, I've never been complacent in my life. I'm not complacent. And I said, Well, I guess you're complacent by complacency. You just you just have a you have you have a blindness to that, so to speak, you know. So so this is, you know, really hell, how healthy is your organization? This really to me is all about the health of your organization. You can look good on the outside and have something growing in you that maybe isn't so good, and the reflection of just culture in terms of how we treat people, how we react to things, how we come back to them about things to enable their participation and acknowledge their participation. Even if we don't do what they might have brought up, we at least acknowledge that. I think these are really the keys to an organization that has a healthy relationship with uh itself and with its workers.

Danny Smith: 6:41

Sure. And if you go back kind of to that clinical definition that we were looking at a few minutes ago, uh one of the things that that it kind of opens up with there is that idea of learning and improving by openly discussing discussing things, identifying problems, examining the weaknesses, not only of the individual, but also of the systems of the organization. That to me, that kind of goes back to uh you know our human factors framework where you look at that individual learning loop and the organizational learning loop of things and and try to determine what the best uh solution is for for both sides of that, right? Uh yeah. And you know, the other thing I see there is uh, and you kind of led to it in that uh what you were saying a moment ago is um the idea of transparency. Uh I want to dig into that just a little bit because that transparency, uh as we said in that clinical definition, is you know, just that willingness to to go through and to look at at everything, you know, and kind of the well to to use a Clint Eastwood phrase there, kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? You know, without getting into the sound effects here, but uh you know for sure. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, uh but this idea of transparency is just uh really, really critical.

David Bianco: 8:00

Yeah, and it's um you know the thing about it is that you really in an organization, people learn uh not by what they're told, but what they're what they see, what they experience. Um, and and I, as a leader of this project, and I as a trainer, and I as someone as an advocate, um, I find myself doing things and uh uh not intentionally thinking about setting examples, but just by as you develop like new safe behaviors, for example, to share with people what those are so they can learn and think about those. The other day uh I was in one of our facilities and they had a fire drill, of course, right? So we're we had a big meeting, we everybody's coming out of the fire drill. And and so as we're going out the door, the the the carpeting right before the doorway had the lip turned up on the front right corner of it, and I was toward the end of the line. And so um, so what I did was I got out of the building and and and made sure everything was clear and all that, and we got back in. I took and uh this rug um was it there was a lip to the uh underside door, and so we turned it 180 degrees and put that flip-lip under there so it didn't affect anybody's walking pathway.

Danny Smith: 9:25

Sure.

David Bianco: 9:25

You know, it was still there, but the edges that were facing where people walked were flat, right? So just by you know, saying, hey, uh, I have a responsibility, how bad would I feel if the next guy behind me tripped on that and hit his head and I knew I could have done something about it, you know. So I think those uh, you know, and that's what you want, that's what you want to emulate. Uh, I was on a tour and there was a big sheet of paper on the on the ground, and everybody on the tour went past it and nobody picked it up. Right. And I saw it as a slip trip opportunity for somebody, you know, is the way I looked at it. It wasn't as much picking up the trash, it was really looking at that. So I think these are the things, and in in that kind of culture, you can do that, and you can then say to the people, hey, by the way, when you see something like that, think of the bigger picture, think of you know what the impact to the company could be. Uh, and and I think that that over time, you know, you you start to develop the uh awareness and the acceptance and then the actions of people to to take those things on. Because if they don't feel free to do it, you know, that's where you get this, it's not my job. I'm not, you know, gonna worry about it. So uh, and then the company needs to kind of recognize those kind of things uh as uh uh you know incentivizations or whatever it is, they need to they need to recognize that and and uh give kudos or whatever way they're gonna do it, because uh it doesn't happen overnight and it doesn't happen automatically. You've got to work at it and you've got to emulate it. And uh that's the that's the only way that I I've seen that you really can get to that point.

Danny Smith: 11:09

Yeah, it's like everybody has to feel safe uh and they have to feel protected when they're voicing their concerns. Um yeah, and back to the idea of the rug there that you turned 180 degrees, you know, just and you didn't say you tripped over it, but you certainly you saw it there, but you saw it as a trip hazard, right?

David Bianco: 11:26

Yeah, right.

Danny Smith: 11:27

But but you think about if somebody did trip over that, you know, would they would they be willing and feel comfortable then to say, hey, wow, I nearly busted my head open or nearly fell or whatever because of that. That's a part of that transparency we're talking about there. And people feeling safe and feeling protected when they start voicing those concerns about safety, just talking about their own actions, the actions of others, uh, whatever it is, just to get people really communicating. And I think that's a lot of what this comes back to is kind of communications.

David Bianco: 11:59

Yeah, it does. I, you know, you're saying that, Danny, and I I reflect back to the first, I don't know, six months we were uh implementing Safe Start and back in 2014 and early 2015. And I'll never forget there were people that would say to you know, a colleague on the on the shop floor, hey, watch out for the line of fire by the door, whatever. And they and they kind of make a little bit of a light of it or a joke of it, or you know, kind of whatever. And I remember one of the other managers was standing there and he said, Boy, doesn't that doesn't that really get your goat the way they act about it? And I'm like, No, he's like, Why not? I said, They're they're seeing things and focusing on things and talking about things they never would have before.

Danny Smith: 12:41

Yeah.

David Bianco: 12:42

I said, I said, they'll get over that honeymoon of making fun of it. You know, I said, that just kind of goes with the territory, you know. I said, but they're watching out for each other.

Danny Smith: 12:51

Sure.

David Bianco: 12:51

I said, and and how many times have we tried to tell people we want you to watch out for each other? And how well did that work? You know, so so you know, it really gets down to feeling open to be able to uh say those things and and be uh aware of them so that you can, and then recognize that you know, when a guy says that to another, then you know, if that guy's gonna get angry about it, then you got a problem there, right? So he's got to be open to it. So it really takes that communication cycle to work properly. Right.

Danny Smith: 13:25

Yeah, it's funny, as you were saying that, I was thinking back to uh, and you may have heard this story before. So if I'm repeating myself to you, I apologize. And some of our listeners may have heard it as well. But I had a client back a number of years ago that called me one day after we had implemented Safe Start, and they were probably six, eight months into their journey, I guess. And uh he called me one day and he was very concerned, very genuinely concerned. And he his his thing was I I walked out on the floor today and I heard people joking and cutting up with each other about the line of fire and hey, keep your mind on task and this, that, and the other. And he said, Man, they're just turning this whole thing into a joke. And I like you, I said, Hey, uh, that's great. And he says, What do you mean? I said, Not that they're turning the program or the process into a joke, but they're talking about it. And I I kind of laughed and I said, Tell me this, uh, when was the last time you went down on the shop floor and you heard a great joke about your Hazcom program about chemical safety? And he said, What do you mean? I said, Well, and when's the last time you heard a good Hazcom joke? He said, Never. I said, When did you go down and hear them joking about it? He said, Never. I said, That's my point. They're talking, let them talk, you know. They'll get like you said, they'll get over that honeymoon feeling, right? Yeah, they'll get past that. But there, the big thing is gets people to talking, it engages people, gets uh, and that affects your culture, right?

David Bianco: 14:36

Yeah, absolutely, 100%.

Danny Smith: 14:39

So going back to this uh this definition again, uh, one of the final things that I'll just mention out of that, uh, before we get some other things like the benefits of of Just Culture is uh one of the big things, and I think this is important, is human error is not viewed as the cause of an adverse event, but rather it's really viewed as kind of a simp system, uh a symptom rather of maybe some deeper trouble within an imperfect system. I mean, that sounds a little like some of the human and organizational performance or HOP stuff that we hear out in the marketplace today. Uh, but certainly it it does take us looking not only at the individual, but also at the organization to make sure we're looking at both sides to make sure this is holistic, right?

David Bianco: 15:22

Right. Yeah, and and one of the things I think that has become more of uh focus for me as I, you know, over time have uh looked at a lot of uh injuries or near misses and done investigations and really put peeled the onion layer back and all that, you start to get into what are some of the organizational things that maybe cause people to be in states that we then are saying you need to self-trigger on or you need to you know work on habits about, but they really are things that predicate the opportunity for that to be the norm and the way we do it. And and by moving those things into the systemic processes of your risk assessments, your job hazard analysis, looking at the human factor, looking at the human factor in the design of your product. Are there things within the design of your product? You know, there used to be a uh a discipline that was much more talked about uh when I was going to college and what I was learning industrial engineering called design for manufacturability, design for assembly, divine design for serviceability. Right. So you tend to um you you tend to look at the way you're going to build it or the way you're gonna service it, and you you kind of look at the human side to determine how are you going to make this plausible uh for the people who do that work so that you don't put things so tightly together they can't get to it or you know, whatever it might be. And I think over time, uh, you know, I mean, it's like you think of a phone and they're trying to squish as much technology in there, but you don't have you don't have human beings going in there trying to, you know, trying to fit in there or anything like that. So, but but it's almost like uh, you know, there's this kind of default to, you know, certain things that, you know, sometimes depending on the product, bigger is better, sometimes smaller is better. But the point is, do we actually uh design it and put it in a fashion and then produce it in a fashion so that they don't uh create the very scenarios that we talk about. There are, you know, our products are very wide-ranging, some are very, very large, and some are, you know, uh maybe the big side of a caterpillar type uh unit or something of that nature. And it's surprising sometimes you get these big units, and then you'll get some of these areas that are really tightly packed together. And then you get a guy trying to go in there and service it, you know, and you go, Oh, I guess this job description needs a weight limit because I don't know that anybody most people can fit in this thing, you know, to even get to even do it, you know. It's like uh you got to call a thin man in or something to work on it. So, so you know, those are uh that's another example of looking at your organization, looking at yourself and asking yourself uh these questions.

Danny Smith: 18:24

Sure. In those situations like that, you look at that from an individual standpoint, that the organizational decisions are then transferring over to the employee at the individual level and causing frustration, perhaps causing some rushing and things of that nature as well. Getting back to those human factors we're talking about. Uh I heard an example uh from a chemical plant I was working with uh a few months back. And uh I forget the specifics exactly, and they didn't take me out and show me exactly where they were, but uh it was essentially they had to go up a couple of flights of stairs as they were doing a certain part of their process just to turn one valve, you know, and then had to come back two or three. And it's one of those you wonder how many times do they skip that, how many times is that aggravating to them, that type thing. So you can see how certainly some of those things can cause problems. And that comes back to design, which is kind of the organization side of things, part of those technical systems we talk about a bit. Um certainly it's looking at that those imperfect systems and seeing how can we make this better, not only more efficient, but also, like you said, the serviceability. I guess maybe because I I oversaw the pro the facilities maintenance team for years and some of the machine maintenance uh with these organizations that that I go to that in the back of my mind, you know. Sure. You got a tight tight uh pump room and you got to change out a 20 horsepower motor. How are you gonna get the stinking thing off the back of the pump and out of the room?

David Bianco: 19:52

Right.

Danny Smith: 19:53

You got to think about that on the front end, right?

David Bianco: 19:55

Oh, absolutely.

Danny Smith: 19:56

Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit here. Um, we we kind of defined what Just Culture really is. Um, let's talk about when when an organization really gets it right and they've got that Just Culture built. Uh, what do you think are some of the benefits that you've seen from from having that just Just Culture, if you will?

David Bianco: 20:18

Well, the that perception of uh freedom that's there and the reality of being able to engage in it can make us aware of uh things that are risky to and thus prevent future injuries. And and that's really uh obviously what we're really shooting for in safety is is to make it a safer workplace. And and so that visibility is really important, that transparency. I you know, I always uh I always use this example, Danny. Uh something will happen, and some somebody in the group that's there that's worked there a while or whatever, they will use this line. I knew that was gonna happen. And I'm like, I'm not impressed because didn't did we do anything? Did we, you know, all of a sudden you're Karnak with the envelope, you know, and you know the answer. But the truth is we needed to know that back when you quote, knew it was gonna happen, right? Or knew it was a problem. So that that again, that freedom and that openness of to do that, I think is important. Um, getting solutions from employees because of their engagement. Um, they're part of the solution and not seen as part of the problem. Right. Uh, that's really, I think, an important part. Um, you know, looking at, you know, any kind of indicators you get ahead of time, uh, you know, you're getting some kind of a noise out of machines or you're getting something that isn't, quote, normal. And we act upon that, you know, it's not a great idea. You know, once your car starts, it says you're really low on oil after the light's been on for two weeks, that's a little bit uh, you know, you're you're running uh a little bit short on luck at that point. So really getting giving those uh signals and and the due uh concern that they should have. Uh keeping these guys out of getting into group things so that they have the freedom to be able to challenge things and go outside of maybe the norm of what everybody else is saying because they see something. You know, we always talk about fresh eyes and the ability to bring in a different perspective. Um, it's really important. Um I find it, I find it really critical when you're doing investigations because the people around it, a lot of times they they kind of know the nuance and they kind of have already built a case in their mind. And yet you get somebody from another department to come in and say, well, what about this and what about that? Or you know, and so I think that's really an important uh to do that. And really that and the whole idea brings about really, you know, a focus on employees' well-being and their engagement in the organization, their worth in the organization, uh, the value that they bring to the table. I mean, doing that can also, you know, uncover uh, you know, what I call a gem or a diamond in the rough, some person that really knows a lot about something. And you know, you've just had them cranking, you know, a ratchet for 10 years, and then all of a sudden you realize, hey, this guy or gal, you know, they've they've got this other side to them and can contribute so much more. So, you know, that whole idea where people feel safe, um, you know, it doesn't um it's it doesn't create an environment where uh people just leave because they're like, well, nobody listens to me or nobody cares, you know, uh, you know, and and and I don't I'm not really valued in this organization. You know, we saw a lot of that with COVID in terms of people wanting to change jobs because you know it was just such a tough time. But I think if people are valued, they tend to not go down that rabbit hole, right? You know, and so so you know, really then focusing again, uh, you know, what's gone wrong, what's the problem, how do we solve it, not you know, who did it and and the the what and who of what went wrong. It's more like, you know, what really you know was going on, what happened, not just who was involved, but what happened. Because most times when something happens, it happened before.

Danny Smith: 24:21

Yeah.

David Bianco: 24:22

So it isn't the who, because the who would be repeatable only to that person. Right. So those are those are kind of what I see generally, you know, as the benefits that we would gain from it.

Danny Smith: 24:33

I read an interesting quote the other day. Uh, it was from a gentleman in an organization that uh a younger uh employee had made a mistake, and uh it was one of those learning opportunities, shall we say, and it was an expensive mistake. Uh, but the the con the comment that the CEO of the company made was mistakes are fine. Let's don't make the same mistake twice. And I thought that was just incredible, you know. And looking at those mistakes that you make, not as something where it's a discipline type thing, but rather it's a learning opportunity. Let's let's learn from it, let's see where we go from this, and let's make sure that we don't make the mistake, same mistake twice, not just as an individual, but also as a company, right? Um give you a great example here.

David Bianco: 25:23

Go ahead, go ahead. I was just gonna say mistakes have value. Sure, they have a lot of value. And I've I remember I was told my kids, I don't mind if you make a mistake, I really mind if you don't learn from it.

Danny Smith: 25:32

Yeah. Um, you know, I think uh another example here, uh you've probably heard this from uh one of our uh other senior consultants, Kevin Cobb, uh, he uh he made a mistake once that he has shared with numerous folks. Uh he was uh heading home from Chicago uh after he'd been doing some training on site with a client back a number of years ago, was on a Wednesday evening trying just to get home. We've all been there. And uh just about the time he was boarding the plane in Chicago to head back to Dallas, his phone rings and he didn't realize the the number, which that's not uncome uncommon for us as consultants. It's like, yeah, we probably answer a lot of spam calls because we don't we think it may be a client, right? So uh anyway, he he answers it, and there's this very chipper voice on the other end of the phone saying, uh, hey, we're setting up the room for you for training tomorrow. Just wanted to check and see if there's anything else you needed. Uh keep in mind Kevin's getting on a plane to go home to Dallas. Uh but the the client wasn't in Dallas. The client was in Salt Lake City. Um, so uh yeah, you can imagine, right? Uh and that sinking feeling for sure, right? And it's one of the things I've always had kind of the fear of showing up in the wrong city or or something like that. Um and and actually I did fly to the wrong city in Ohio one time, but at least it was in driving distance. So I kind of got away with that one. Uh, but it did cost me a couple hundred bucks, I think, and some embarrassment. But anyway, back to Kevin's story. Um he he was stuck. There's no way to get him to Salt Lake City until a few weeks later when his schedule opened back up. And you can imagine the client wasn't real happy. Um, you know, and double booking in our case as consultants, that's like a cardinal sin. You just don't do that, right? I know, for example, I realized in my case that I had booked for the wrong city uh in Ohio as I was flying between Birmingham and Atlanta. And there was absolutely nothing I could do about it, right? In Kevin's case, he had the whole flight from Chicago back to Dallas to figure out what the heck did he do wrong, right? And how he how he'd mess that up. Uh and as he would tell it, uh, well, it's there on the Safe Start card. It's it's just about mistakes that he made. And so he gets to Dallas, and one of the first things he does is he calls our CEO Barb Tate and told her what happened. And uh, as Kevin relates the story, he says, that's not a not really a mechal thing you want to be doing with the CEO, right? No.

David Bianco: 28:13

Um, so everybody's vulnerable, though. That's uh that's right, the thing, you know, that's right.

Danny Smith: 28:19

Feeling that transparency and that ability to be transparent, right? That's what it what it amounted to, you know. So obviously Barb was upset but uh and disappointed, but to say the least, she respected Kevin's willingness to come forward and say integrity, yeah. That's right, I messed up, right? And uh the other thing I think during the flight from Chicago to Dallas, Kevin had the time to kind of reflect on it and and figured out what it was that caused the problem. And uh he told Barb, you know, hey, don't go double checking systems. Uh I just thought about it for a couple of hours on the way home, and this one's completely on me. And so her response was pretty simple, and it comes back to this idea of just culture. Will this happen again? And Kevin's very clearly said, nope, I can assure you that mistake is never going to happen again, right? So to me, that's just uh kind of an illustration of that just culture thing, right? Sure.

David Bianco: 29:13

You know, I really think, you know, knowing Kevin, I really find it hard to believe that he wasn't able to get the pilot to divert, you know, just I'm I'm really disappointed to hear that. It's uh I don't know.

Danny Smith: 29:26

Turn this into a private flight to Salt Lake, yeah, right.

David Bianco: 29:29

We're having equipment problems, we're going to have to deter to Salt Lake City.

Danny Smith: 29:34

Yeah. Yeah. It does kind of foster that idea of just culture, though. I mean, uh it's just that uh, well, to me, it really has to start with the top. And I think Barb kind of exemplified that in in that that example there, right?

David Bianco: 29:50

Sure, sure. Yeah, it's a tough one to swallow. Sure. But uh, but it does make for a great SafeStart story.

Danny Smith: 29:58

That wouldn't be Yes. Well to go back to my example too. In my case, I was flying to a workshop that we were doing in uh Columbus, Ohio. And uh I had I simply typed in a wrong airport code when I was buying my ticket. And uh instead of CMH for Columbus, I typed in CVG. And well that's you in Cleveland? Uh Cincinnati? Okay, okay. But you know, David, what's amazing is you think I messed up there. Did you know that the Cincinnati Airport isn't even in Ohio? It's in Kentucky. They put it on the wrong side of the river, so I wasn't the only one that screwed up those anyway. That is weird. That is a weird, yeah. So let's go back to safety uh in terms of just culture in terms of safety for a bit here. Um, you know, you think about this idea of being willing to be transparent and report things. Um, I've seen people, and I'm sure you have as well, hiding injuries. Uh, you know, well, it's it's not bad, or maybe they're embarrassed, or whatever it is. Um the leadership reacts when they hear bad news as well, right? So maybe that feels just culture as well.

David Bianco: 31:14

Yeah, I mean, when I came into safety, um there were uh situations that I could tell had happened before where things really hadn't been dealt with, you know, and then the chickens kind of came home to roost. I remember my first year our our our injury rate went up. Um it went, you know, it went up probably 35%. Right. And I remember uh my boss at the time kind of looking at me and saying, gee. He said, I I thought you were gonna fix the problems. I I said, I did I did. He said, What do you mean you did? The number I said, I said, yeah, I'm reporting everything now.

Danny Smith: 32:00

Yeah.

David Bianco: 32:02

I said, you got a baseline now. I said, you know, that's you know, so I mean you gotta, and that's you know, that's not it's kind of like some people again, Just Culture saying that to your manager after you've been given this job, you know, you gotta kind of have the freedom to just say, hey, that you know, this is the way it is. Um, and and so everything, you know, came from there, and it was you know, it was much uh and I think the other thing is what you do when that happens is then the organization knows the the importance of reporting, the importance of uh, because I always tell people we care about what happens to you. That's really the issue at the end of the day. We we want you to be healthy, we want you to go home well, and if something does happen, we never get a chance to make it better if we don't know about it. Right. Near misses whatever they are. So so that's just an opportunity. So I'd say that, yeah, that really is the way that ends up happening, and we have to just recognize that um culturally, some organizations think they're a lot better off than they really are.

Danny Smith: 33:13

Um that's really true. That's really true. Um expand on that a little bit more. What do you what do you think there with that? Just folks thinking they're good, but they're not.

David Bianco: 33:24

Well, I think part of the problem with that is uh I call it the dilution effect. In other words, you start with a policy and an intention at the top of the organization, and it filters down in the organization, right? And then it gets potentially diluted some as it goes through, depending who it goes through and how much it aligns to their values, priorities, maybe the measurements on them. I mean, uh, and so those things remind me of, you know, when those uh those things are coming down in those games and they're moving across and all that, you know, and some take a straight path down and they, you know, they just go straight down and nice and smooth, and you get what you want. And the other ones are kind of going all over the place, right? And that's the image I have of an organization that really every every one of those moves to the side is a dysfunctionality of some kind, right? And they occur at different levels of the organization for different reasons. So the way to really know how an organization operates is to go to the lowest level and ask those people those questions about the day-to-day reality of their world. Uh, and to me, uh, that to me is the only way. And I'll tell you, doing it face to face is a lot better than a survey. Because surveys, you know, you can blast somebody, you can be, you can BS and say it's great, but when you're looking people eye to eye, you know, you kind of know their hesitation to answer, or the look on their face, or the rolling of the eyes, whatever it might be. So I think if you really want to get this right and really want to understand that, I think you really have to do the hard work. You really got to get to that level because that is in fact your day-to-day operation.

Danny Smith: 35:18

Sure. And how do you feel about organizations really having people kind of in charge of managing that, I guess you could call it that psychological or or social impact of decisions that are made? I think that kind of feeds back into this too, doesn't it?

David Bianco: 35:35

It does. I think that's um uh I'll say a blind spot. I think that's really needed. I think the psychosocial aspect of things, and I I you know, I think COVID was a very strong wake-up call in that regard. The way people behave, the way they adjusted, what they needed, how we worked, how you know, how we reacted, how we responded, though that was, you know, kind of I call the defibrillator effect, you know, on the organization. And uh, and I just think that that aspect of things um is not considered deeply enough. I I just think that there is in fact, and the more layers you have in an organization, the more rules you have in an organization, you know, then it gets harder and harder for it to operate well because you're always working, you know, around these systems and these issues. And you know, there's there's companies like Netflix, and basically their CEO is said, we're not gonna have a bunch of rules, we're not gonna have a bunch of do the right thing for the company.

Danny Smith: 36:42

Right.

David Bianco: 36:42

If you're not doing the right thing for the company, then we're gonna have an issue. But I'm not gonna sit there and pre-prescribe everything that says what it is to do the right thing for the company, right? You know, you've got to recognize that in your work content and what you do and where you add value and and what that is. Uh, you know, if you're an adult and you're a professional and you're doing the job, then you should be contributing and adding value. And and if I'm just telling you everything you need to do, I'm losing creativity opportunities that you have because you're too busy just following the rules, right? Right. And worrying about following the rules. So I I think that whole aspect of things is just uh a real, uh I say low-hanging fruit, in my opinion. I think that's something that is uh there for the taking in terms of uh analysis, analyzing an organization. And and the thing that's ironic about it to me is a lot of times there's leadership programs and things to tell people how to lead. But do they really understand how the organization is functioning? What are they inheriting? What do they have to work with, right? Because I could tell you how to be a great cook and give you all the ingredients, but if you go into the kitchen and you don't have the right ingredients, you are not going to come out with that chili. Sorry, it's just not going to happen.

Danny Smith: 38:05

Right.

David Bianco: 38:06

So, so that to me is uh there's just um to me, that's uh uh that's a whole sphere of opportunity. And uh I just think that there's a lot of and really honestly working with human factors and safety kind of really started to give me an open view of that much more clearly, you know, than I had before. I had a sense of it before, kind of like you know it's going on, you kind of can understand it, and and you you kind of sometimes you localize it. You go, well, this just it's just us, it's just our division or our what then you start working with a lot of different companies, a lot of different places, and they have similar things. They're they're culturally maybe totally different, but some of those same uh same aspects exist there. So that that is really to me an area where I think we really can gain a lot in the future.

Danny Smith: 39:01

Yeah, it's interesting to me that uh as we see some of the new uh new ISO standards and things like that coming out, uh, even the move sometimes within the HR realm. I mean, we're seeing more and more trends towards addressing that psycho psychological and social impact of things as we move along, you know. And I know a lot of companies are moving from from the traditional HR manager position, title, whatever you want to say. They're they're moving away from that and moving more to asking those HR professionals to be more people oriented, you know, and that's it sounds like well, they should be already, but it's a difference in mindset, you know. I think you know, here at Safe Start, for example, uh our HR manager left for another opportunity, just had an incredible opportunity where somebody contacted him kind of out of the blue about it, and uh he he obviously had to take that opportunity, but his new replacement uh has got a new title. Uh it's not going to be an HR manager, it's gonna be uh a People and Culture manager. And uh that's a reflection of what we're talking about here, right? Yep, absolutely. One more thing here. Uh let's let's say folks are listening to us today and they're they're thinking, all right, well, having a just culture sounds great, but I'm not there yet. Uh so how do you shift from uh for lack of a better term, how do you shift from unjust to just? How do you make that how do you get there? You know, uh it's like we're we got that little you are here spot in the mall diagram, you know, how do we get to where we want to go with a Just Culture if you're not there yet?

David Bianco: 40:38

Well, the first thing I would say is you you do it in you do it in small ways at first to put your toe in the water, kind of a thing. You find places in the organization where it's safer at at the at the beginning because and then you model that. And then the successes that come from that tend to draw attention. And and by doing that, you start to create um a buzz or whatever you want to call it, you create uh a visibility to that, right? Um, I mean, our CEO, when she came into our facility in Garland in I think 2017, 2018, and she saw what we had done, she talked to the people, she heard what she heard was like very different. And I think that that that draws people to well, how what are you doing that's getting you there? What's what's bringing that about? How did you get there? That's you know, that's what we want, that's how we want it. And then you start to really in the organization, you start to separate the wheat from the chafe, essentially. You know, and and in doing that, it becomes more visible where root causes are, where adjustments need to be made, where approaches need to change. Because if you try, I'd say if you try just like a big bang effect, like we're gonna make you just, you know, I just honestly think uh it doesn't have as much heart, it's more head. It's like another rule, another policy, another, you know, whatever. And the thing about SafeStart for me is as a process in human factors, is you can learn it easily, but getting it to really affect you in your behavior and the way you you treat yourself, you treat others, the way you see things, that takes a transformation. And I think organizations need ground root, grassroots, ground-up transformations that that grow out of uh strong leadership and strong people skills in in the organization. We have been, I think, in business in general, very good the last 30 years, let's say, taking managers, making of managers people who are really good technical people, because managers are more tactical now these days. They're doing they're transactional, they're not people. Oh, you got to do a review on that person once a year. Oh, God, I'm talking to the guy. I don't even know. Uh I guess he's doing okay. He hadn't got me in trouble or whatever. I think that is that is one of the biggest fundamental mistakes American business has has done. Uh that they really have divorced the manager part and the people part a lot. And we talk about soft skills and those kind of things. Well, just culture takes a lot of soft skills. And and and that is uh often not really as big on the radar when they are interviewing people and looking at people and and what have you. So we tend to maybe escalate somebody into a position where they're functionally technical, but they're really not a good people person. And so uh everybody's just drifting essentially at that point. So I think these are the things that are needed in order to stabilize the relationships within the organization, because every employee needs to find worth in being there beyond picking up a paycheck.

Danny Smith: 44:11

Sure. Yeah, it's it's amazing when you think about how we establish that worth and and part of it, uh part of it does come back to those managers, just having those skills, particularly I find the frontline supervisors that, as you say, maybe technically proficient at their job, but they're lacking those people skills. And it's not it's not that they're bad people, it's just they haven't they you trained them how to be a uh a a good forklift operator in your warehouse. You trained them how to process the orders and get them out the door in the shipping department, but you didn't train them how to manage the other people in that department if you promote them, right? Uh they just don't have those skills. So and that's a matter of where our our SafeLead process comes in, you know, giving those uh people those individual skills at an individual supervisor level, sure.

David Bianco: 45:04

Yeah, but but the thing I think of when I think of this is Rate Your State, because you're now creating an individual connection and a bond. Right. Uh we had a guy who was a production manager and and an operations manager for over 40 years, and he became a very big advocate for Safe Start. He loved it. And that he he went out and he did, he he had his people do so many Rate Your States a week. And I mean, he was really on it. And but he his thing to me was he said, you know, I've known some of these guys 30 years. I found out about things about them I never knew or understood or appreciated until I did this. Sure. You know, and it's kind of like you know it is when you walk past somebody, you see them differently, right? You know, he's not just the guy, you know, that's getting that rig out at the end of the day. You know, he's the guy who maybe the wife, you know, you know, have some sympathy for because maybe she's has an illness or whatever it might be. Right. And and and those are you got to get really into that kind of a relationship to really evolve. And uh, and and so those are the tools that really bring you much, much closer to that because it isn't natural. It isn't, you know, it isn't a matter of fact, there's part of a thing that's kind of like, you know, don't get too close to your employee or be careful, or you know, whether and that's true, of course, you've got to be just in the sense of fair, but you also have to, I think, uh be an empathizing person. And and and Rate Your State really puts people on uh solid ground and the same level to be able to really relate to one another. And and many times we've uh we've assigned people different work because of the states they're telling us they're in. You know, so work's still getting done, but we're not putting them in something that's really stressful, harmful, whatever. We're trying to protect them, protect the company, protect the customer, you know, to do the right thing. So I mean, these are these are the things that really, really bring about a more mature uh and and just environment.

Danny Smith: 47:04

Sure. You know, and part of that, I guess, and I could get on a soapbox about this for a while, and we're we're about out of time here, I guess. But uh, you know, I think we as a society uh we've really done a good job over, as you said, over the past 20, 30, 40 years of of turning out some really great managers, but we we're we're not really turning out great leaders. And that's something that I think it comes back to that people side of thing, right? So yeah, no, that's the biggest piece, it really is. Sure. And I think that's so critical when we're talking about Just Culture, right?

David Bianco: 47:34

So yeah, you can't have it without it.

Danny Smith: 47:36

Sure. Well, as I said, I think we're about out of time for today. David, uh, thanks, thanks so much for sitting in with me and sharing some of your wisdom with us. Always great to have you with us here.

David Bianco: 47:46

Thank you for the invite.

Danny Smith: 47:48

So uh for our listeners, thanks for your time as well. We really appreciate you spending part of your day with us. Uh, we do have, as I mentioned earlier, the the there's a podcast that Tim Page Bottles did earlier uh this year with uh psychological safety. Uh I'll put a note uh in the show notes about that so you can access that easily as well. Uh if you would think about some other folks who might need to hear this episode, and if you would be sure to share that with them. Uh for Safe Talk with Safe Start, I'm Danny Smith. And until next time, have a great day.

David Bianco: 48:20

Take care, everybody.