S15Ep12 The Map is Not the Terrain: Charting a New Course for Leadership

S15Ep12 The Map is Not the Terrain: Charting a New Course for Leadership

Jamie Clarke is a world-renowned adventure leader, elite climber and performance coach who has inspired audiences as a sought-after speaker for more than 25 years. That’s exactly why we selected him as the opening keynote speaker for the 2026 SafeStart Forum. While some may see Jamie as a risk-taker, his perspective is rooted in risk management—understanding how to adapt when the plan no longer matches the reality in front of you. In his keynote, he’ll share powerful lessons on leadership, decision-making and resilience, drawn from extraordinary experiences in some of the world’s toughest environments. Expect compelling stories, practical insights, high energy and plenty of humor. Get a quick preview of what’s to come in this conversation between Danny and Jamie.

Host: Danny Smith
Guest: Jamie Clarke

Transcript

Welcome And Forum Details

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome once again to Safe Talk with Safe Start. I'm your host, Danny Smith. And I'm really excited for today's podcast because we have with us Jamie Clark, who is our opening keynote speaker for our 2026 Safedart Forum. In case you haven't heard, the forum is going to be held this year on October 20th and 21st, and we're going to be in Franklin, Tennessee, which is just south of the Metro Nashville, Tennessee area. Before we dive into the conversation with Jamie, uh, just a quick reminder registration is open already. You can get more information on our website, including things about early bird and group discounts. The website, if you don't know it already, is safe startforum.com. Safe startforum, F-O-R-U-M.com. So our guest today is our keynote speaker, Jamie Clark. And Jamie is actually very, very busy this time of year. It's a great uh problem to have, I guess you could say. But uh he's actually joining us today from an airport lounge. So you may hear a little bit of noise in the background, but that's okay. Uh kind of goes with kind of the busy schedule that all of us lead right now. But we're really excited to have him not only with us for the forum, but also able to join us today for the podcast. If you were to ask me how I'd describe Jamie, I'd say, well, he's a businessman, he's an entrepreneur, he's an adventurer, and just an all-around nice guy. Uh, and that's just his professional side. So uh welcome, Jamie, if you don't mind. Uh, tell us a little bit more about yourself, if you don't

Jamie Clark’s Adventure Background

SPEAKER_01 1:25

mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Absolutely. Well, first of all, Danny, thank you for for uh inviting me to join you to chat. Uh safety is uh close to my heart, although people perceive me as a crazy risk taker. Uh, but in actual fact, I'm the opposite. I'm all about risk management. You know, how do we perform uh in dangerous environments and not just physically dangerous environments, but emotionally as well, psychologically, financially. Uh so this is awesome. I'm just I'm treated, uh it's a treat for me to be able to chat with you. And I'm looking forward to uh being uh with the team in October. Uh so a little background on me. I grew up, I'm a Canadian kid. Thank you for allowing me to visit America. I um grew up in Calgary. I'll make it quick so we don't bore your listeners. Calgary is like a Denver or Boulder, Colorado, right near the Canadian Rockies, 60 miles away. And I grew up with a kid, as a kid, sorry, interested in adventure, largely because I read books. It was my imagination that got me going. And just traveling in the mountains, uh, surrounded by Avalanche Risk and grizzly bears and you know everything else that can bite or scratch you. And I just came to absolutely love traveling in the outdoors, and that led to a lifetime commitment to this idea. Uh, and I'm super grateful and lucky that I've been able to uh do it my whole life. But I'm really I'm really interested in kind of the richness of experience, you know. I I want to have a wealth of understanding. I still got to pay the bills, but that that's really what gets me out of bed in the morning. And I've been really lucky to climb all over the world. And climbing has been my primary vehicle of adventure and exploration on every continent, uh, and to some of the world's highest mountains. And uh that's my background.

Defining Success Before Pressure Hits

SPEAKER_01 3:15

That's amazing. You know, one of the uh one of the incredible things that I've uh seen in your story and in your background is not only that you have summited Everest twice, but uh you also had a couple of times where you weren't able to summit, if I'm not mistaken. And I've heard you talk about how you look at those where some people would der deem that as a failure, but you really look at that and try to redefine failures as learning opportunities, which really kind of aligns with how we approach this idea of management of human factors. So if you don't mind, talk for a moment about how how you kind of redefine that failure, if you will, if you want to call it a failure, and I'm not sure I would. You made it back down off the mountain, so I call that a success, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yes. I mean, I don't want to sound all kumbaya, and it was like, oh my gosh, we went to the mountain and we didn't make it, but that's okay. Uh, we all love each other. No, I was mad. You know, we were upset, we were disappointed, we were embarrassed, we were all those things that get wrapped up into failure. Uh, to this day, it still hurts a little, uh for sure. But we before we went, and this is what I try to do on every expedition, whether it's large or small, is to have a conversation when emotions are not running high, when we're not in the middle of being pressured, where we can remove some of those human factors and just as a group have a discussion. How do we define success? What is success for us? Um, how are we gonna make decisions? Although we have a hierarchy of leadership and titles and tenure and all the rest of it, as you can expect in an expedition or an organization, we still think it's useful to have conversations about subjectary experts and who's in charge of what and how are we gonna make decisions and how do we trust each other? This is a really big thing. How do we build trust and have those conversations? Do you just give trust and I erode it, or do I have to earn it? It's a combination of both, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're having these meaningful conversations so that once you're in the moment and the pressure's high, maybe somebody's hurt or we're exposed to a lot of risk, we're not totally running around uh with our heads cut off. We do have a reference point. Now, things change under pressure, ego, ambition, circumstances for sure. You know, human factors get into the mix, but at least we had some sort of a standard, a baseline to reflect upon. And I think ultimately quitting was always an option. And I know that's such a heavy word and it's loaded with meaning. Failure is an option. That means we need to begin again, perhaps. Uh, but especially in the climbing world, being able to quit and then all the baggage emotional that emotionally that comes with that, just realizing it because I don't want to die out there, and I don't want anybody else to die out there. I don't want anybody really to get severely hurt. You're gonna get beat up. Like if you if you're not if you're worried about bumpsing bruises, you should probably stay home. So, but any injury should be something we can recover from. We shouldn't have a bunch of you know post-traumatic stress associated with it. Uh, these are tough circumstances, but I think just trying to have honest conversations about failure and ultimately, and then I'll shut up and you can ask your next question, but ultimately turning failure into feedback. Now, if we keep making the same mistakes, fire me. You know, that that's a problem. But how are we supposed to innovate and grow and evolve as individuals or a team if we can't make some mistakes? But they have to be controlled, they've got to be thoughtful. You can't be reckless. Your mistakes can't be somebody getting hurt dead. You might have some close calls and some other problems. Okay, that was a failure. All right. Well, rather than assigning blame and pointing fingers, let's learn from this so it never happens again, so we can feed the collective brain. So, my my relationship to failure changed over time. And uh, I've never really partaken in anything that was challenging that I didn't encounter repeatedly failure, learning from it and moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

That's amazing. I love it. I love how you frame that again, which is very similar to the way we look at things in terms of how we learn as organizations, how we learn as individuals, how we learn as teams, as you put it. Uh, how we can all frame those things that were less than optimal, be it a complete failure or just a, you know, okay, we didn't totally achieve our goals. We reached 90% of them. But still, how can we? There's some good and some bad that we can learn from. I'm curious, uh, you you did make it to the summit of Elrus twice, obviously, and uh you've had numerous other climbs, as you mentioned. Um, I'm curious as you make those climbs, uh, what is the difference, maybe physically, um, emotionally, perhaps uh even mentally? Um I was thinking about this going up versus coming down. There's got to be a difference in how you handle that. And obviously, it's you've got to be safe going up and coming back down. But what kind of goes through your mind there? Is there a tendency at times to get a little complacent on the way down? I'm just curious as to how that mindset goes. Do you do you somewhat find yourself thinking, okay, I gotta make sure I don't drop my guard as we're coming back down?

Why Most Accidents Happen On Descent

SPEAKER_00 8:33

100%. You hit the nail on the head. Statistically speaking, accidents. I don't know how this number holds up from recent analysis, but sort of historically, 60%, so over half of accidents, fatalities, injuries, problems occur on the descent. Now that might mean you you've reached your objective, the summit, or maybe just a tricky route you were climbing. It's irrelevant about the summit, but you've you've reached your objective, and now you're working your way down. Maybe you return uh to the lower mountain via the route that you went up, repelling down or down climbing. Or maybe you went up and over it or traverse, and maybe it was ethical on one side and a walk down the other in quotation marks. Regardless, accidents occur anytime in the process, and nobody is safe until we're all returned home, not just base camp, but having returned home. And 60% of problems happen on all the way down because of what you said. Human factor, for sure, emotionally. Maybe you made it or you didn't make it. There's a sense of relief or disappointment, or you start thinking about the future or that murder you're gonna have, or you're reconciling the fact that you made it or you didn't mentally, emotionally, physically. It makes sense. This is often later in the day, later in the month, later in the week, out of the effort. You're you're you're taxed, you're likely sleep-deprived, you're maybe malnourished, you've lost 15 or 20 pounds of weight, you're not uh a great specimen physically. So you're not dealing with a very good uh motor at this point. Uh, so it really becomes almost like a mantra among the team, where it's like, you know, it's the round trip that counts. Everybody stay focused and diligent. And here's where a good team matters a lot. You you're not trying to micromanage each other or be annoying, but you keep an eye on your buddy. And you're hoping they're keeping an eye on you. And if they're getting sloppy with the ropes or the techniques or the carabiner, or you know, they're stumbling around, maybe you got to share your snack with them. Maybe you need to have a pause and get some calories or some water. Maybe you double check their carabiner that it's locked. You know, just being attention to each other and helping each other out and having that kind of culture where you can, you know, you're wearing your helmet and the strap is dangling underneath your chin. That's gonna fall off before you hit your head. So, you know, just taking care of each other without it being micromanaging.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Sure. Yeah, and and I think that sometimes uh we find in some of the processes that we teach with Safe Start that sometimes just having that quick conversation or that quick interaction with somebody like that can somewhat bring them back to the moment. And that kind of gets them refocused, not only on the, you know, checking the carabiner or checking the you know, the strap on the helmet, but okay, what else could I possibly miss? And that kind of gets them refocused there. So I think that's that's an amazing way to look

Building A Culture Of Looking Out

SPEAKER_01 11:33

at that. Um, I saw in one of your speeches you talked a bit about uh soft skills and particularly how we all need soft skills as leaders. And I guess that's kind of just a good transition from that. Um, one of the comments you made, and I just absolutely loved it, I wrote it down like, oh, I got to save that for the interview when we do the podcast. Uh, you said soft skills are essential skills. Uh, and I think that is so, so true, particularly as we have people who rise up within organizations and are promoted from within, that kind of thing. So, not that any of us have all that figured out, but certainly it's something we all need to continue to evolve in, regardless of the level of leadership that we're at. But talk a little bit about the idea of the soft skills that are needed. And you touched on a few just then, but uh, what are some other things that you see, kind of correlations between the climbing world and business world in terms of the soft skills development?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Well, and and I should uh I don't know what the term is, it's like I've got to come clean with you because I have a confession to make where I initially found these skills, the soft ones, annoying to the point of hey, look, you're technically good at what you do, you're an engineer, you're a geologist, you're a doctor, you have the skills to do the work. You're a great climber, you're a rock climber, ice climber, you're nanny, you're strong like a bull, you can carry loads, you can build a 10 platform. What? Look, just let the work speak for itself. Why do we have to have

Soft Skills That Make Teams Great

SPEAKER_00 12:58

all this? You know, who's your friend and how do you get along and mock for a while? You know, you know, you can be very good for sure with having that that baseline of technical competence and use that as sort of an umbrella to gather it all. Good climber, excellent accountant, an actuary, you know, you you got the technical skill, you can go a long way. You can really go a long way. You're gonna have probably a pretty good career. Now the question becomes do you want to be great? Do you want to be world class? And if that's the case, if that's the case, then you have to complement that technical skill. In my observation, and you know, toss this out if you don't buy it, but in my observation, and and and working with high-performing teams in a variety of disciplines, the great, the world class are those who are very good at their work. They're also good people. Now, I'm not being judgy that the other people aren't good. I'm just saying that they get it. They pay attention to the soft skills, they understand maybe how to read a room, they're able, because their egos are not so fragile, to take some feedback that may not be perfectly timed, it might not have the right words, but the intent is there. You know, they're not wrapped up in their titles, they're not parading their tenure, they're constantly curious about how to perform well inside of the team. And so we call them soft skills over the years. They're actually quite hard. It's really difficult, and they are essential. If you want to be great or you want to be world class, you want to be average, mediocre, okay, there's letters of space for it for sure, I'm sure. But we gotta master, uh, and and this is a problem with this, too. I find it's annoying. This is a uh it's a journey. This is not one and done. Got the degree, took the course. Uh, I've achieved a certain level of emotional intelligence, done. Don't have to think, nope, it's every day, all the time. And sometimes it's annoying, and sometimes, oh my gosh, really, this is what we're working on. And but when it works, this is the beauty of it. Here's the return on this investment. When you get to work inside of a high-performing team, A, very technically capable, B, a good group of humans working together, that to me is magic time.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Absolutely. Yeah, I love it. I love it. And I think that's uh just kind of sets the stage for what we're gonna talk about at our forum in general. Uh and I I love kind of where you're going with this. And it again, it just dovetails in so well with what we talk about and how we approach the management of human factors. Uh, so anything else you'd like to add real quickly here? I don't want to keep you too long. I know you're busy traveling today, but uh just again, thank you for your time today, and thank you for the opportunity to have you at our forum. Uh, so uh anything else you'd like to chat about real quickly?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Well, you know, for first of all, again, just revisiting that sense of gratitude. Is it a crime to travel sometimes? Sure. You know, I can be a little whiner, getting on a plane and going here and doing this. My treat, my joy is uh obviously being in the adventure uh arena, wherever that might be, uh outside. What a privilege that I get to kind of share the week, I get to learn as much from the group, you know, over breakfast and hanging out as uh I'm supposed to deliver from the stage. So I'm super grateful. I'm really looking forward to it. And now after chatting with you, I'm feeling a little nervous, which is always a good sign because when you're nervous, you know you're gonna have a little bit of fear in the mix, which is a good indicator that you're taking everything seriously. Uh, you know, but I being a bit scared is good. The alarm goes off. If I'm scared, I can't hit snooze. I gotta swing my feet to the floor. And I like that. I like that heightened level, and and standing in front of a crowd of people is slightly terrifying. I think there are two, here's the last thing, and I'll shoot out, get out of your hair.

Transferable Skills And Forum Invitation

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Transferable skills. I'm always so fascinated by transferable skills. You may have an expertise that I don't even understand. I mean, I can't even talk to you about it. You're so deep in the subject of expertise. But no matter if you're passionate about that and driven and thinking, I can learn from you. Take not all of it, but the transferable skills, the parallels, the connections in all walks of life from every kind of discipline and background. Uh, and I love that. So I'm I'm really looking forward to sharing what transferable skills I can from the this world of adventure. And I'm I'm looking forward to uh learning from all of you.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Sounds great. Thanks so much again, uh, not only for agreeing to come to speak at the forum, but also for your time today. Uh, and just in closing, a quick reminder for everyone uh the Safe Start Forum is going to be packed with a lot of great speakers, including some of our consultants, some of our clients will be there speaking as well, and some other invited guests. Uh, it really has something for everyone, regardless of where you are with your human factors management journey. Uh, and frankly, whether or not you're a client of Safe Start or not, or you're considering being a Safe Start client, uh, there's really something for everybody there. So we really would encourage you to come and consider coming to the forum. Again, the uh website is safe startforum.com and encourage you to go out and take a look at that. Again, registration is open now. Uh, and we would love to see you with us in Franklin coming in October. It'd be a beautiful time of the year there. The leaves will be changing. So if you are like my wife and I, quote unquote, leaf lookers, it's a great time to be in southern Tennessee. So we'd love to have you there. Uh for Safe Talk with Safe Start. I'm Danny Smith, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in Tennessee in October. Have a great day.