S6Ep7 Psychological Safety

Why is it so hard for people to ask questions? Or bring up significant potential safety issues on the job site? This episode discusses psychological safety and why your company is not safe until you accomplish and maintain it.

Host: Tim Page-Bottorff
Guest: Rosa Antonia Carillo 

Transcript

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Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
00:08
Hey, welcome back to SafeTalk with SafeStart and I'm Tim Page-Bottorff I'm your host for today and a special shout out to all of our new listeners. I have to tell you in this new year, I've recently come across an article slash interview from the National Safety Council's Safety and Health Magazine, and the article was entitled Psychological Safety, which a hot concept in management can help create safer workplaces or workforces, and I was intrigued. Now I have to tell you, the last full year I've done research my master's program right around psychological safety. I still feel unqualified to speak about the subject. However, I did reach out to someone heavily quoted in that article who happens to be a close friend of mine, Rosa Antonia Corilo, and she's the president of the Safety Consultancy Corillo Associates, and she's also the author of the book The Relationship Factor in Safety Leadership, which Achieving Success Through Employee Engagement. Rosa, we're so excited to have you on the podcast. Welcome. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
01:10
Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about my work because I do believe that if safety professionals begin paying equal attention to the social factors and relationship building in their work, they're going to see tremendous success. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
01:29
I totally agree and I really appreciate you being here. I'm so excited about this, as you said before we jumped on, that we're. This is going to be fun. This is going to be fun. So I guess we should probably begin with kind of a working definition of psychological safety to help frame our discussion. So what do you think that looks like? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
01:45
Well, I'd like to start a definition that William Kahn put out in the 1990s. He said that psychological safety meant that you could be yourself when interacting with other people. You could be authentic, and it just really struck me because I thought you know, how authentic am I? Am I always trying to fit into what the other person expects of me, or am I being myself? Then Amy Edmondson, who's a Harvard professor, wrote the Fearless Organization, and in her research she found that psychological safety seemed to be linked to the way team members treated each other and delivered high performance on that team. That's when Google decided to do their famous Aristotle research project and they interviewed their top performing teams, team members, and they discovered that the one common denominator of these successful teams is that, they said, I can bring up an idea without fear of being ridiculed. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
03:02
Yeah, I like that. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
03:03
That was so profound. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
03:05
Yeah, for sure, I like that. I like that beginning. I'll tell you what some people that are out on the workforce, when you get out on the shop floor, how difficult is it for them to be themselves. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
03:19
Well it is. It is difficult in an environment where you're not sure how other people are going to react. If the team leader accepts feedback and is open to it and treats you with respect, you feel safe to bring up issues or talk about ideas that you've had. But too many of us work in situations where that isn't true. The team leader feels threatened, their authority threatened when people ask questions or come up with ideas that are different from the team leaders, and that's when psychological safety goes out the window. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
04:05
And that kind of comes back to trust. I mean, who do you trust? I actually see this all the time, especially when I'm doing a trainer certification for SafeStart. Someone pulls me aside and says, hey, kind of during the break and they'll ask me a great question and I'll turn around and bring it up in front of the entire class because just from a trust perspective, that's so important to bring out to everyone, not just between me and you. So for me I thought it was very insightful. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
04:32
Well, you bring up an excellent point, because I don't think that most of us realize how hard it is for people to ask questions. 

04:42
They are so concerned. We are so concerned that we won't appear competent, that it'll appear like we're an outsider, because everybody else seems to understand or have the answer, but I don't, and I have to ask this stupid question. Unfortunately, most people don't ask and I've talked to people out in the field where they've literally said I really didn't know how to use this piece of equipment for two years because I couldn't ask anybody how to use that piece of equipment. So that is why I say that it's really important to make people feel comfortable bringing forth information, because most of the information we need to prevent accidents is with the people that we're working with. But if they don't feel safe bringing it up, then the accident happens and then afterwards everybody goes around oh yeah, we should have seen this and we should have seen that. Right. The hindsight, the accident analysis comes in hindsight, when we could have had that information all along. If only people had felt psychologically safe. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
05:57
That's a good point. There's so many doors that we could open up here. Stop Work Authority. Did you give the authority? Did management make that communication clear? Oh my gosh, I mean we could probably spend hours just on that one topic right there, but from a trust perspective, it just comes back to that. So some of the organizations that I have visited, I hear employees that I'll just say they make it clear our management team is just not to be trusted and, of course, by extension, I'm not to be trusted simply because I was brought in by management and for me, when I come in, that's the way they feel. And so I don't know if you've ever been on site and you've had that third-party expression from a student saying okay, what are you gonna bring to me today? Why are you here and why don't I trust you? How big of a deal is trust to you? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
06:47
Well, when I was young and first starting out, I thought people should trust me. Why don't they start from a position of I trust you, I have good intentions, I have my degrees? Little did I realize that you have to earn. You have to earn that trust. And when you're young that's really hard to realize because you've just come out of school, you have all these great ideas, you have all these answers and you come out talking to people and at them, as opposed to learning first what they know, how they do the work and building that relationship of trust. 

07:28
I have to tell you this story because when apropos,  of just having gotten out of school, I was asked to come and help a group of supervisors and employees do a root cause analysis on a fatality and this employee had been working there 20 years using that equipment, so it wasn't a question of inexperience or being lazy or anything like that. So I went in with all my tools root cause analysis and systems thinking and systems analysis and the employee stopped me. He said we already know what causes fatality. And I said what was it? He said lack of trust and open communication. I said those are not causes, those are symptoms. We have to analyze the system and get to where the communication broke down. He said no, the root cause is lack of trust and open communication. Well, why do you say that? And he said because we've been telling management about that equipment for months but they wouldn't listen to us, they wouldn't fix it. And now our friend is dead and now they're spending all of this time trying to fix things. 

08:53
I have to tell you, as a young person, I that was one of the hardest lessons in my life. It just hit me so hard to realize that so much information is out there and all around us but the managers and the safety professionals were not listening and they were not acting on the information. They weren't trusting the workers, that the workers knew what they were doing or talking about. And ever since then I have spent my career and you can look at all my articles all the way back to 1995, about trust in the workplace and I was pretty much ignored for a long time. And now what is everybody talking about? Trust is the number one factor, right? 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
09:45
So I gotta ask you you've kind of already answered the question, but in regards to psychological safety, do you see how it has an impact on the entire workplace safety culture? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
10:00
Well, absolutely, because without psychological safety you can't have trust, and without trust you can't have communication, and we all know what happens when people aren't communicating with each other and sharing information. But psychological safety is the same as having a sense of belonging and inclusion. Does that make sense? 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
10:32
It does, it does. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
10:34
Yeah, because when you feel psychologically safe, you feel like you're with your tribe, you feel like you belong there, you feel important that people value your input and what you have to offer. So, without psychological safety, you have a group of individuals as opposed to a team for a tribe, and the group of individuals may all have different goals and may be going off in all different directions, and that's when the workplace becomes very dangerous. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
11:13
And I have to tell you that silence, as you brought up from a Stop Work Authority, is usually management's answer. And so when these employees actually have said that they have brought it up to management, it's not really silence, it's just that those things fell on deaf ears. And I'm thinking, I know I want to ask you this question about how you can create a psychologically safe culture. But before that I kind of want to underscore depending on where organizations are, it kind of determines how long it takes to create that culture. So I'm sure everyone's heard the old adage trust is earned in drops and poured out by buckets. Do you agree with that? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
11:55
Say that again. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
11:57
Trust is earned in drops and poured out by buckets. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
12:01
Oh, yes, I think Covey did a good job with that. You have to put in 10 deposits into the trust account for every one that you take out. You can destroy trust so easily and it is so hard to rebuild because it takes time and it takes persistence. And many times here's the sad part about it. Many times we do things unconsciously that we don't know is breaking down the trust because we've never walked in that person's shoes so we don't have the same fears or the same concerns that that person has. And that's where empathy comes in, which is an extremely important soft skill to develop. I would have to say listening and empathy are two of the top skills. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
12:58
All right, so that's created on the ground, in the college, at home. In respect to just thinking about where could people learn listening and empathy skills, and I just don't think there's a soft skills 101 out there anywhere. And just before we got onto this podcast, we had actually talked about how can we get this to students in colleges and universities, and this would be, this would be great, and if they come into a workplace already equipped with that, they could actually see those gaps almost before they occur. So let's get back to that communication interests. 

13:32
You talked about a big deal communication. Half of that equation is listening and so, with that said, do you think it's better or something that we've been professing since 1998, having one common language where people can feel free to jump in, because the moment that an employee jumps in and says something to appear without a developed relationship, they end up having that feeling of being ostracized or being put out because they said something, and so now you brought it back up right up to the very beginning that they fear talking about anything. So I know communication is just it's kind of a two-way street, but do you think non-judgmental language helps? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
14:15
Well, that's a skill as well, because how many of us are taught to speak in a non-judgmental manner? In fact, it's the opposite. If you're opinionated and speak out and you're considered smarter, and if you ask questions, so that's a detriment right there. But going back to your question about listening and empathy and how you get those skills, I think it's a lot of people don't realize, because they've never been taught, that these are actual skills and that you have to practice them, and a lot of that entails letting go of things that you always thought were absolutely true. 

15:12
For example, in order for me to listen to someone or trust what they're telling me, they have to have a degree in whatever. They have to prove that they're competent and that they know what they're talking about. So we disregard all kinds of experience and things that that person brings to the table, because we have a mindset that only one kind of knowledge counts. So the young person has to and I know I'm talking from experience, and I'm sure you went through this too, Tim that learning your lessons the hard way, which is to come in all confident and sure that you have the answers and then watching everything fall apart around you because you don't have those relationships that are going to support you and teach you. Yeah well, hon. You may think this is right, but this is what's really going on. Ideally, when you come into the workplace as a new person, you should just be asking a lot of questions and letting people know how much you respect their knowledge. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
16:24
And I think asking questions actually gives that it's kind of an unwritten level of trust, because you want to know and you want to be on the same playing field. Now, time and time again and I just got two points here there's always mal mentorship. You give the new employee to the person that's been there for 30 years, who's developed all the poor bad habits and the shortcuts, and then what they do is they transfer that same education of poor bad habits and they move that on to the next person and then the cycle just repeats itself and from a psychological safety perspective that kind of builds trust, but it builds trust in the wrong direction. So I have to ask you I've also looked this up and spoke with many members of the American Society of Safety Professionals about this but there's no OSHA or legal standard that's out there that requires the employer to follow some level of psychological safety is there? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
17:16
Well, what about ISO 43,000 on psychosocial risk? I think it's beginning to look at some of that, because they're looking at mental health and, of course, psychological safety is very important to mental health and if you don't have it, you're you're stressed and you know what sustained stress will do. Not only is it bad for you physically, but it's bad for you in terms of being aware of the risks around you because you don't have your full mental awareness and capacity available. See what's going on. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
17:58
Yeah, that's good the standard. It actually is a family of 45,000 and one, so under 45,000, two and three. It's kind of nice to see that there is a standard out there that's gonna assist employers as a guidance document, but OSHA is not gonna come knocking on your door and looking at a framework for psychological safety success because they just don't have it. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
18:17
No, no, I think it's. It's something that's coming up. It's going to take a long time to really bring it up to that level. I think we have to depend on the human component, the human factor, to come in and do it for the right reasons, as opposed to because it's the law right. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
18:40
No, I agree, I would always say to people that having compliance be your sole foundation for safety is pretty good for supervisors, but it doesn't do any wonders for any of the employees, because they just don't understand, and what's in it for me is just not as clear. And in this case, the psychological safety factor, or the human factor that you just brought up, is actually extremely important. So safety is always going to be in the concept's name in terms of psychological safety. So do you think this should be something that the organization should take on as a whole that includes everybody supervisors, employees, management or is this the sole responsibility of a safety professional? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
19:20
No, of course not. It's, it can't be done. I mean a safety professional who isn't supported by managers or the or the supervisors, can practice psychological safety from his own person and develop those relationships so that people trust him, come to him or her and ask for, for what they need. I've seen supervisors like that. I mean safety professionals who have developed those relationships in spite of lack of support from from line management, and I've seen supervisors who can do it without any support from line management, create psychological safety on their team and have a high-performance team. 

20:09
I I've written about this extensively because I psychological safety, you know, is a group phenomenon and it's a small. 

20:20
It takes place in a small group of people that are working together and can form that, that tribal feeling, in order to make, to broaden it to an organization, then you need leaders in higher positions that will build this with their larger circles, because each leader, depending on their position in the organization, either has a small circle, like a team leader, or, you know, much wider circle, like like a CEO. 

20:54
So I don't think we should relegate it to any anyone person or any one position. We can't say, oh, it's only the responsibility of the supervisor or only the responsibility of the manager. The safety professional can do it on their own in order to improve results, and one of the things that happens is that when, in order to do it for others, you have to have it for yourself, you have to feel psychologically safe yourself, and I've been doing a lot of work with that with safety professionals. How do you build your own psychological safety so that you can make it safe for others? And then sometimes your psychological safety will attract supervisors and managers into that dynamic. It's been known to happen. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
21:53
Because they're curious or because they like what you're doing? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
21:55
They like, they like how they feel around. You see, because everybody needs psychological safety the supervisor, the manager, the CEO, everybody needs it. So when you come in contact with a safety professional who feels psychologically safe and is helping you feel psychologically safe, it doesn't really matter what your level in the organization is. You're attracted to this person. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
22:23
My goodness, you are awesome. I just got the chills because it's just because of how they feel. This is all you said, but it's just because of how they feel. And if you make somebody feel welcome, you make somebody feel like they're important, the conversation's important. This all goes back to what you've already said. It helps develop that culture and that can happen one person at a time. So, again, it doesn't necessarily have to be the safety pro that's doing all the work, and if you make a person feeling good around yourself for what you do, that actually is contagious and I really like that. Psychological safety can be contagious. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
22:57
It is. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
22:57
It is sounds like the new title of a book. 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
22:59
Thank you, I needed a new title. I'm thinking about my next book. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
23:06
All right. So, fortunately, the role of safety pros and their contact with those workers and how they make them feel at all levels of the organization. They're very unique and your approach won't be the same. So I got to ask one final question what would be your recommendation for those folks that are out there listening that might be interested in creating this culture of psychological safety so it can be not only sustainable but it can thrive? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
23:33
All right. Well, I am developing a series of micro learning events or workshops. With that help leaders and safety professionals practice what I'm calling sociogenrative leadership, and sociogenrative simply means that you are generating a social group, a social location where people feel psychologically safe. All right, there's five needs that you have to fill. For psychological safety, people need a sense of autonomy, they need a sense of certainty, they need a sense of status, belonging and equity. 

24:22
All right, and there are different things that successful leaders do to meet these psychological needs, and there's a lot of them, but I just wanted to give you a few examples, since you told me you were going to bring this up. But for autonomy, giving people more autonomy in their role, insisting on dissenting opinions this is the response of my boss trusts me to do my job, and that fulfills autonomy. For belonging, of course, build those relationships and get to know team members more than find out about their families. Find out about what their interests are. This generates a feeling of my manager and my coworkers care about me. I'm part of a team and that, of course, goes with the sense of belonging. 

25:14
For certainty, this is the number one element that all successful leaders talk about frequent conversations to clarify priorities and direction. It's a way to show that it's okay if you ask questions or start doing things a little differently, because you always have a place where you can come back and clarify and reset your priorities Apologizing when you make mistakes, giving credit for contributions instead of taking credit, and I would say, another really important one is acting on the information and concerns that you receive, because that's what makes people feel that speaking up is safe and has value. So I hope that these are specific enough to give people a clear idea on what it is that they can actually do, because there are people out there doing it and I've interviewed them and this is what they've told me works. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
26:23
Perfect. Oh my gosh, I can't believe our time is over. Any closing thoughts for everybody that's out there? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
26:32
Well, don't be too hard on yourself. Building these relationships, staying open, practicing empathy day in, day out, isn't easy. Relationships are probably the hardest thing that we have to do in our that we have to manage in our lives and that includes family, friends. But there are great opportunities to learn. We learn about ourselves, we learn how to improve the way we relate to others. We learn to make a bigger difference. So stick to it and try to build a little circle of around yourself where you can talk about these things and hold each other up and encourage each other. When you feel like, oh my gosh, I really blew that one, it will happen. And then you'll just get up and do it again. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
27:27
Well, it's been so fascinating to have you on the podcast. We had a great discussion. I wanna personally thank you on behalf of all of our cast members, our group, for being a guest. Can you tell everybody how they can get your book, The Relationship Factor and Safety Leadership? 

Rosa Antonia Carillo
Guest
27:44
Sure you can. It's available on Amazon and all major booksellers, and I have found that Amazon really has the prices go up and down, but they have the lowest price and they have it in paperback as well, so that's great. It went down in price quite a bit when it went on paper. So please, yes, do take a look, and if you have any thoughts or questions, I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so just go on there and search for Rosa Antonia Carrillo and I will answer you. 

Tim Page-Bottorff
Host
28:20
Rosa, thank you so much. I will leave everybody with a quote from Maya Angelou that I really feel like encapsulates everything that Rosa said today. But from Maya Angelou she said, quote I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. 

28:40
And I think, from my perspective, after talking with Rosa before, after reading some of her articles going through her book, I really feel like that quote sums up what she's talking about and how it's important, and so that's our time for today. I'd like to thank Rosa for being our guest. Please share this podcast as part of your Change Management Action Plan, as part of your psychological safety efforts or your overall business culture, and until next time, stay safe. For SafeTalk with SafeStart. I am Tim Page-Bottorff for you. See you down the road. 

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